Archibald Britton Wyles (1887-1941)
Royal Navy Air Service (F38863) Service Duration 1917-1919
Update: (10.12.2021) The MOD has issued a number of subsequent documents during an email exchange that can be read HERE. Group Captain Clive Montellier has kindly clarified a number of issues for my family. At the point of discharge - and contrary to what was previously speculated - Archibald Britton Wyles was an 'Air Mechanic First Class' (AC1) which was recorded in an incomplete manner on his War Record as 'C!' - which might have been an accepted abbreviation at the time (and possibly also used to refer to a 'Clerk' in a separate administrative rank). He was an 'Air Mechanic' and not a 'Clerk' as assumed below. This has been proven through the finding of other documents in the MOD Archive which also recorded that my great grand-father was also awarded the 'British War Medal' (WWI) and the 'Victory Medal' (WWI).
On his marriage certificate dated 1.10.1910, Archibald Britton Wyles (born 1887) is recorded as living at '33 Beakes Road' in the ‘Smethwick’ area of Birmingham, also known as West Bromwich. His occupation is listed as that of ‘Groom’, and if memory serves me correct, he worked in Uppingham (which is 8.6 miles west of Duddington) as a young man pursuing this occupation, before migrating ever further westward toward Birmingham. Although living in Birmingham when he joined the Royal Navy Air Service (RNAS) in 1917, his War Record lists him as coming from Duddington and now working as a ‘Draper’. This is the story of how our family ‘Wyles’ lineage left Duddington in the early 1900s. If, for sake of argument, it is said that Archibald left Duddington on his 18th birthday (c. 1905), then it would be another 103 years before his great grandson (i.e. myself – Adrian Peter Wyles) would yet again set foot on the soil of Duddington – the land of our ‘Wyles’ forefathers. Alfred Gregory Wyles (my grandfather) was born on August 5th, 1916 in Smethwick – he was the second of our Wyles family to be born outside of Duddington in the 20th century (the first was Joseph Wyles – the first son of Archibald and Helen born probably around 1910). Interestingly, Alfred was born during the First World War and a time of great uncertainty for many ordinary men in the UK. Archibald joined the Royal Navy Air Service on September 28th, 1917. By the time of the birth of Gregory – six years into the marriage of Archibald and his first wife Helen Wyles (nee: ‘Edwards) - Archibald is described on the birth certificate as a ‘Master Draper’ (or more specifically - ‘Draper (Master)’. Years later, as a young man, Alfred Wyles would traverse back to the Lincolnshire area (although not Duddington), where my father – Peter Desmond Wyles – would be born to Alfred (a serving soldier – Ox & Bucks Light Infantry) and Gladys Wyles (nee; Kilmurray from Ballynacarrigy, Westmeath, Republic of Ireland), in the Louth (Lincolnshire) 82.6 miles northeast of Duddington in 1943. The first child of Alfred and Gladys, however, was Patricia Wyles (born in 1940), who spent much of the war living with relatives in the Irish Republic. Patricia, Alfred and Peter were all ‘war babies’.
A friend of mine who used to work for the Audit Commission, assisted me for many years in researching the Wyles family history of Duddington. Indeed, it was ‘Liz’ who found Archibald’s War Record for WWI in the National Archives (free of charge). This is different to the WWII Naval War Record of my maternal grandfather – Arthur Gibson – for which we had to pay a fee to the Royal Navy for a search in the archives of the Imperial War Museum (London). Why Archbold's WWI War Record was placed in the National Archives (or ‘when’) we do not know. Archbold’s Royal Naval Number was ‘P.I.C. 200880’ and he signed on from September 28th, 1917 for the duration of hostilities – and was eventually ‘demobilized’ on the 21st of July, 1919. The initials ‘P.I.C.’ stand for ‘Protection and Identity Certificate’ (prefixed to a special document issued to ex-Servicemen that ensured medical and welfare support in a Britain prior to the advent of the 1948 Welfare State and NHS).- whilst the initials ‘F.E.’ placed after his age mean ‘First Entry’ (or first time in the Royal Navy). His date of birth is recorded as the 18th of February, 1887. He is described as being 5 ft 8.5 ins tall, with a chest measurement of 34.5 ins, together with brown hair, blue eyes and a fresh complexion. Nothing is listed for wounds, scars or marks. He entered service – and received his basic training – at the RNAS recruiting depot situated at Roehampton in West London. Archibald appears to have been on what the Royal Navy terms ‘concrete ships’ (or in this case a ‘stone frigate’), with the first posting being on ‘HMS President II’ (stationed at Felixstowe, Calshot and Bembridge), where he held the rank of ‘ACII’ or ‘Air Craftsman' 2nd Class’ (pertaining to a trainee 'Air Mechanic' serving in the RNAS). (Recent research [see below] suggests that the designation 'HMS President' was administrative rather than actual and could represent changes in ship placement - without naming the real ship itself. That is, other than on paper, my great grandfather may never have set foot on any of these 'President# ships, or 'stone frigates'. If this is the case, then Archibald's War Service remains a mystery). This designation shows that he was enlisted into what was effectively a ‘private’ into the Royal Navy to work exclusively upon the new concept of aeroplanes used for warfare. The Royal Naval Air Service was the air arm of the Royal Navy, under the direction of the Admiralty's Air Department, and existed formally from July 1st, 1914 to April 1st, 1918, when it was merged with the British Army's Royal Flying Corps to form the Royal Air Force.
Archibald Britton Wyles (Obverse View) Won the 'British War Medal' (Left) which features the Sir Bertram Mackennal's bareheaded effigy of King George V facing left, with the legend "GEORGIVS V BRITT: OMN: REX ET IND: IMP:" (George V, King of all the British Isles and Emperor of India) - and the 'Victory Medal' (Right) which shows the winged, full-length, full-front, figure of 'Victory' (or 'Victoria') with her left arm extended and holding a palm branch in her right hand, similar to the statue surmounting the Queen Victoria Memorial, in front of Buckingham Palace in London..
Archibald served on the President II between September and March 31st, 1918. On March 31st, 1918, he is recorded as holding the rank of ‘ACI’, or ‘Air Craftsman 1st Class'. He was then transferred to President V (a ‘stone frigate’ based in London) which specialized in handling military accounts. Archibald served aboard HMS President V until February 18th, 1919, where he held the rank of ‘CI’ or ‘Clerk 1st Class’ (this appears to be an 'Administrative Rank' and could signify a 'side-ways' promotion away from the normal ascending of the ranks into a 'specialised' function - perhaps working with important or sensitive documents pertaining to military personnel, etc, for Officers who appreciated his administrative skills and who had ensured his transference into this area of work). Although Archibald Wyles went about methodically training, the RNAS recruits were trained to be office workers (I.e. military clerks), sailors, pilots, mechanics, infantrymen, marines, armoured car personnel and perform any number of difficult functions and tasks (in many ways the RNAS of 1914-1918 appears to be the forerunner Long Range Desert Petrol and Special Air Service formed during WWII). The main ‘naval’ roles of the RNAS were fleet reconnaissance, patrolling coasts for enemy ships and submarines, as well as attacking enemy coastal territory. The RNAS patrolled the English Channel and the North Sea for U-boats. In 1917, for example, the RNAS was responsible for identifying 175 U-boats, whilst successfully attacking 107 of those U-boats. The limited technology of the time meant that these attacks were not successful in terms of German submarines destroyed, but the sightings greatly assisted the Royal Navy's surface fleets in combatting the enemy submarines. Early during WWI, the RNAS provided mobile cover using armoured cars, during the British Army withdrawal from Antwerp to the Yser. Later during WWI, squadrons of the RNAS were deployed to France to directly support the ‘Royal Flying Corps’ (RFC). The RNAS was also at one stage entrusted with the air-defense of London. This led to its raids on airship stations in Germany, in places as far from the sea as the manufacturing site at Friedrichshafen.
Reverse View - British War Medal (Left) - designed by William McMillan, shows Saint George naked on horseback and armed with a short sword, an allegory of the physical and mental strength which achieved victory over Prussianism. The horse tramples on the Prussian eagle shield and the emblems of death, a skull and cross-bones. In the background are ocean waves and just off-centre near the right upper rim is the risen sun of Victory. The years "1914" and "1918" appear on the perimeter in the left and right fields respectively. Victory Medal (Right) has the words "THE GREAT / WAR FOR / CIVILISATION / 1914–1919" in four lines, all surrounded by a laurel wreath.
During WWI the British Army administered the Royal Flying Corps (RFC) which was merged with the RNAS on April 1st, 1918 to form the new Royal Airforce (RAF). Archibald Wyles was still in the RNAS at this time, and continued to perform operational duties as a member of the RNAS until he left the ‘stone frigate’ President V on 18th of February, 1919 and returned to the RNAS training camp at Roehampton in West London. He then spent 6 months being ‘debriefed’ and ‘processed’ until his final demobilization on the 21st of July, 1919. President V probably became operational just before Archibald Wyles was posted to it on April 1st, 1918. It appears to have specialized in training Accountant Branch Ratings – but was decommissioned on the 30th of September, 1919. However, President V was recommissioned on the 14th of July, 1941 for exactly the same function. The RNAS stated that on the 31.12.1917, the 31.12.1918, and the 18.2.1919 Archibald Britton Wyles was of ‘Very Good’ Character. Also, on these dates his all-round ability to cope with the training and discipline is described as ‘Satisfactory’. I assume he received some kind of War Medal for participating in WWI but it is not mentioned on his discharge papers (the section under ‘Badges’ is blank). I am very proud of my great grandfather and am saddened that he died in 1941 (at only 53 years of age, whilst his son – Alfred, my grandfather – was away fighting in another war)) – 26 years before I was born!
Update: (26.7.2019) In an extraordinary coincidence, I reading Roy Jenkins’ biography of ‘Churchill’ Macmillan, (2001), Pages 248-253 - for another (political) research academic project I am involved in. As Liberal MP for Dundee, Winston Churchill served as ‘First Lord of the Admiralty’ from 1911 – 1914. He was forced to resign and leave government in 1915 following the disastrous Dardanelles Campaign. Prior to this, however, Churchill was instrumental in founding the ‘Royal Navy Air Service’ (RNAS), with its innovative ‘Royal Naval Division’ of ground troops, reinforced by armour-plated Rolls-Royce cars fitted with Maxim Machine Guns. These are believed to have been the first armoured-cars used very much like ‘light-tanks’ before the concept of a tank-proper had even been developed. Despite the utmost bravery and sacrifice in the face of Imperial German aggression in Belgium and France in late 1914, the RNAS suffered terrible casualties with many hundreds becoming POWs in German camps. As Churchill was on the ground ‘commanding’ these men in Europe, he was directly blamed for the disaster by Prime Minister Asquith. Roy Jenkins states:
‘Churchill was already in the habit of paying frequent visits to Dunkirk, where he had established both a naval air squadron and several armoured car squadrons (under naval command), which he had grandly constituted by requisitioning all available Rolls-Royces. With some armour plating (of a sort familiar to British ambassadors in the late 1970s when terrorist attacks became a threat) and the provision of equipment for “bridging small cuts in the road”, Churchill saw them as early prototypes of the tank....
He may have been over-eager for this adventure, but there is no doubt that he went with the full blessing of the Secretary of State for War and, more reluctantly, of the Foreign Secretary. The Belgians were also promised substantial military reinforcements, although these included parts of the almost totally untrained Royal Naval Division, a private army of Churchill’s. A battalion which went to Antwerp was commanded by his mother’s ex-husband George Cornwallis-West, and contained the Prime Minister’s second son, Arthur (or Oc), an exceptionally good soldier who rose to be a “civilian” brigadier-general. Churchill took until 3.00 p.m. to arrive in one of his commandeered Rolls-Royces. But once in Antwerp he threw himself with a mixture of galvanic energy, total indifference to his own safety and considerable concern for his own comfort, into organizing Belgium’s resistance. He persuaded King Albert and his Prime Minister that they should try to hold out for ten days, a period which would be invaluable for the consolidation of the left of the British line between Lille and the sea.
In fact they managed to do so only for five, but these days Churchill considered to have been time well bought, for without them he believed that Dunkirk would have fallen. The counterbalancing risk was the loss of the bulk of the Belgian army, although at the end much of this was extracted and available to fight again further back. Some 2,500 British including Churchill’s untrained Naval Division, were either lost in battle, captured by the Germans or forced into internment in the Netherlands.’
Adrian Chan-Wyles (25.7.2019)
Sutton – South London
Written on the hottest Day of the Year Where Temperatures topped 36 Degrees!
Written on the hottest Day of the Year Where Temperatures topped 36 Degrees!
Update: (26.7.2019) In an extraordinary coincidence, I reading Roy Jenkins’ biography of ‘Churchill’ Macmillan, (2001), Pages 248-253 - for another (political) research academic project I am involved in. As Liberal MP for Dundee, Winston Churchill served as ‘First Lord of the Admiralty’ from 1911 – 1914. He was forced to resign and leave government in 1915 following the disastrous Dardanelles Campaign. Prior to this, however, Churchill was instrumental in founding the ‘Royal Navy Air Service’ (RNAS), with its innovative ‘Royal Naval Division’ of ground troops, reinforced by armour-plated Rolls-Royce cars fitted with Maxim Machine Guns. These are believed to have been the first armoured-cars used very much like ‘light-tanks’ before the concept of a tank-proper had even been developed. Despite the utmost bravery and sacrifice in the face of Imperial German aggression in Belgium and France in late 1914, the RNAS suffered terrible casualties with many hundreds becoming POWs in German camps. As Churchill was on the ground ‘commanding’ these men in Europe, he was directly blamed for the disaster by Prime Minister Asquith. Roy Jenkins states:
‘Churchill was already in the habit of paying frequent visits to Dunkirk, where he had established both a naval air squadron and several armoured car squadrons (under naval command), which he had grandly constituted by requisitioning all available Rolls-Royces. With some armour plating (of a sort familiar to British ambassadors in the late 1970s when terrorist attacks became a threat) and the provision of equipment for “bridging small cuts in the road”, Churchill saw them as early prototypes of the tank....
He may have been over-eager for this adventure, but there is no doubt that he went with the full blessing of the Secretary of State for War and, more reluctantly, of the Foreign Secretary. The Belgians were also promised substantial military reinforcements, although these included parts of the almost totally untrained Royal Naval Division, a private army of Churchill’s. A battalion which went to Antwerp was commanded by his mother’s ex-husband George Cornwallis-West, and contained the Prime Minister’s second son, Arthur (or Oc), an exceptionally good soldier who rose to be a “civilian” brigadier-general. Churchill took until 3.00 p.m. to arrive in one of his commandeered Rolls-Royces. But once in Antwerp he threw himself with a mixture of galvanic energy, total indifference to his own safety and considerable concern for his own comfort, into organizing Belgium’s resistance. He persuaded King Albert and his Prime Minister that they should try to hold out for ten days, a period which would be invaluable for the consolidation of the left of the British line between Lille and the sea.
In fact they managed to do so only for five, but these days Churchill considered to have been time well bought, for without them he believed that Dunkirk would have fallen. The counterbalancing risk was the loss of the bulk of the Belgian army, although at the end much of this was extracted and available to fight again further back. Some 2,500 British including Churchill’s untrained Naval Division, were either lost in battle, captured by the Germans or forced into internment in the Netherlands.’
Adrian Chan-Wyles (25.7.2019)
Sutton – South London
Written on the hottest Day of the Year Where Temperatures topped 36 Degrees!
Written on the hottest Day of the Year Where Temperatures topped 36 Degrees!
Update: 18.8.2019 - If we are correct to assume that ‘Mary Ann Wyles’ (1839-1917) was the wife of Thomas Wyles (1824-1887) - then as this ‘Thomas Wyles’ (son of Thomas and Elizabeth – the ‘Blacksmiths’) is our great, great, great (X3) grandfather, then it follows that his wife - ‘Mary Ann Wyles’ - is our great, great, great (X3) grandmother and is the last surviving member of our branch of the Wyles (as far as we know) to live in Duddington! This means that our great grandfather – Archibald Wyles – was born in the same year that his grandfather - ‘Thomas Wyles’ - passed away (I.e. ‘1887’). As his grandfather died on the 30th of December, 1887, he could have known Archibald for a few months, but ‘Mary Ann Wyles’ - as his grandmother – could have known him for the next 30 years (with Mary dying just three months before Archibald left to join the Royal Navy Air Service in September, 1917, to fight in WWI)!
Update: 19.8.2019. Despite the general tragedy of WWI for millions of people in the UK and elsewhere, Archibald experienced a number of personal tragedies around this time in quick succession, and not directly because of the war. His grandmother - Mary Ann Wyles (1839-1917) - passed away in Duddington on the 16th of June, 1917 (aged 78). Archibald joined the RNAS in September, 1917, whilst his father - John Thomas Wyles (1860-1917) - died in Uppingham (Beautmont Chase) on the 23rd of November, 1917 (aged 58). (These two deaths were age related, with John Thomas suffering renal failure). On the 31st of January, 1918, Archibald's wife - Helen Wyles (nee 'Edwards') [1887-1918] - died of 'pneumonia' (aged 31). The First World War ended on the 11th of November, 1918 and Archibald was 'demobilised' from the military on the 21st of July, 1919. On the 4th of Februay, 1920, Archibald (as a 'Widower') - aged 32 - married Diasy Hobson (Spinster), aged 23. Archibald's profession is now described as 'Co-Operative Society - Manager'.
References:
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/16288
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraftman
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/royal-navy-ratings-service-records-1853-1928/
http://uniform-reference.net/insignia/rn/rnas_ww1_ranks_officer_1.html
Update: 19.8.2019. Despite the general tragedy of WWI for millions of people in the UK and elsewhere, Archibald experienced a number of personal tragedies around this time in quick succession, and not directly because of the war. His grandmother - Mary Ann Wyles (1839-1917) - passed away in Duddington on the 16th of June, 1917 (aged 78). Archibald joined the RNAS in September, 1917, whilst his father - John Thomas Wyles (1860-1917) - died in Uppingham (Beautmont Chase) on the 23rd of November, 1917 (aged 58). (These two deaths were age related, with John Thomas suffering renal failure). On the 31st of January, 1918, Archibald's wife - Helen Wyles (nee 'Edwards') [1887-1918] - died of 'pneumonia' (aged 31). The First World War ended on the 11th of November, 1918 and Archibald was 'demobilised' from the military on the 21st of July, 1919. On the 4th of Februay, 1920, Archibald (as a 'Widower') - aged 32 - married Diasy Hobson (Spinster), aged 23. Archibald's profession is now described as 'Co-Operative Society - Manager'.
References:
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/16288
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraftman
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/royal-navy-ratings-service-records-1853-1928/
http://uniform-reference.net/insignia/rn/rnas_ww1_ranks_officer_1.html
Update: RAF Museum Emails (25/26.11.2021)
From: Andrew Dennis <[email protected]>
To:Adrian Chan-Wyles PhD <[email protected]>
Subject: FW: Research: Royal Navy Air Service (1917-1919)
Date: Thursday, 25 November 2021 12:47
Dear Sir,
Thank you for your reply, ACII and ACI refer to Aircraft-hand (or ‘Aircraftsman’) second and first class respectively, although in the RNAS they were usually termed ‘Aircraft Mechanic’. I believe that CI refers to the rank of Clerk 1st Class.
Yours sincerely,
The Collections Enquiry Team
Royal Air Force Museum London
T: 020 8358 4873
www.rafmuseum.org
If travelling to our London site and using SatNAV please use the postcode: NW9 5QW
From: Andrew Dennis <[email protected]>
To: Adrian Chan-Wyles PhD <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: FW: Research: Royal Navy Air Service (1917-1919)
Date: Friday, 26 November 2021 06:45
Dear Sir,
Thank you for your reply, I am sorry to say I do not know the locations of HMS President II & V, I suggest that the National Museum of the Royal Navy should be able to assist you with this.
I cannot say for certain what medals your great grandfather would have been awarded due to different eligibility criteria. However, as I understand it for the Royal Navy there was no requirement to serve overseas as there was in the army and RAF to qualify for the British War Medal. If he qualified for the War Medal, he also would have been eligible for the Victory Medal. Only one War Medal and Victory Medal were issued. To confirm his medal eligibility, I would contact the Medals Office.
There was no requirement at this time to take an individual’s photographs.
Regards
Andrew Dennis
From: Andrew Dennis <[email protected]>
To:Adrian Chan-Wyles PhD <[email protected]>
Subject: FW: Research: Royal Navy Air Service (1917-1919)
Date: Thursday, 25 November 2021 12:47
Dear Sir,
Thank you for your reply, ACII and ACI refer to Aircraft-hand (or ‘Aircraftsman’) second and first class respectively, although in the RNAS they were usually termed ‘Aircraft Mechanic’. I believe that CI refers to the rank of Clerk 1st Class.
Yours sincerely,
The Collections Enquiry Team
Royal Air Force Museum London
T: 020 8358 4873
www.rafmuseum.org
If travelling to our London site and using SatNAV please use the postcode: NW9 5QW
From: Andrew Dennis <[email protected]>
To: Adrian Chan-Wyles PhD <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: FW: Research: Royal Navy Air Service (1917-1919)
Date: Friday, 26 November 2021 06:45
Dear Sir,
Thank you for your reply, I am sorry to say I do not know the locations of HMS President II & V, I suggest that the National Museum of the Royal Navy should be able to assist you with this.
I cannot say for certain what medals your great grandfather would have been awarded due to different eligibility criteria. However, as I understand it for the Royal Navy there was no requirement to serve overseas as there was in the army and RAF to qualify for the British War Medal. If he qualified for the War Medal, he also would have been eligible for the Victory Medal. Only one War Medal and Victory Medal were issued. To confirm his medal eligibility, I would contact the Medals Office.
There was no requirement at this time to take an individual’s photographs.
Regards
Andrew Dennis
Date: Friday, 10 December 2021 15:10
Dear Doctor Chan-Wyles,
As Head of the MOD Medal Office and Joint Casualty and Compassionate Centre, your email of 29 November has been passed to me for a response. From the outset, I apologize that the quality of our reply fell below the standard we aspire to, and this is echoed by the member of staff who initially dealt with your enquiry.
To answer more fully, I am afraid that we are unable to carry out formal medal assessments for those who served in the First World War. The vast majority of medals for that conflict were issued in the immediate aftermath, based on records that existed at the time. Since then, most surviving records have been transferred to The National Archive, and the records of many of those who served were damaged or destroyed in the Second World War ‘blitz’. Consequently, we do not have any consistent source of data beyond that already available to members of the public nor, the specialist historic skills necessary to interpret individual and unit records from the period to make assessments as to what medals an individual might have been eligible for to the degree of certainty that we usually operate to. This contrasts with the Second World War where the medallic recognition was not finally decided until 1948 and the onus thereafter was on individuals to apply for medals; hence there were many thousands who did not claim their medals and we maintain a constant service of assessment and issue based on records that are still mostly held by the MOD and the Services and for which we have a team of trained specialist assessors. I know that will be little consolation in your particular case, but I include it to demonstrate that the limits on our services are driven more by the simple practicality of being able to deliver to a consistent standard rather than any devaluation or lack of respect for those who served in past conflicts.
As my colleague mentioned, our official access to records at The National Archive would produce only the same copy of the service record that you have already obtained. To make amends for our overly brief initial reply, however, I have asked a colleague in a different department who has access to the commercial Ancestry system to conduct a search for me. That has turned up a copy of the same Royal Navy record of service that you have, together with a brief summary of RAF service and very sketchy original document (copy attached). We have also found a medal roll card (also attached) that indicates that one medal was issued to AC3 (Aircraftman 3rd Class) Archibald B Wyles with the correct Service Number, which the annotation of ‘B’ would indicate was the British War Medal. That would suggest that he also received the Victory Medal, but there is no record of that on this particular document (which has other recipients annotated with ‘V’ which might indicate the Victory Medal). Notwithstanding Mr Dennis’ comment below, the international Medal Yearbook confirms that the Victory Medal was issued to ‘most’ of those who had the War Medal, so the two are not always combined. That does not constitute an official assessment of entitlement, of course, but will hopefully add to what you know already.
Again, I am sorry that our initial reply was so short; we get many hundreds of letters and emails around Remembrance season and, in attempting to provide prompt responses to them all, we fell below our own standards. I hope that this more fulsome response explains the background and provides at least some new information.
Yours sincerely
Clive Montellier
Group Captain (Retd) C A Montellier OBE FCIPD FCMI RAF | DBS(Mil Pers) AHd JCCC & MOD Medal Office
Innsworth House, Imjin Barracks, Gloucester, GL3 1HW
Tel Mil: 95471-7058 | Civ: 01452-712612 Ext 7058 | Skype tel: 0300 1629713
Email: [email protected]
As an advocate of flexible working, I will often send messages early or late in the day, but there is no expectation of a response or action outside your own working hours.
Dear Doctor Chan-Wyles,
As Head of the MOD Medal Office and Joint Casualty and Compassionate Centre, your email of 29 November has been passed to me for a response. From the outset, I apologize that the quality of our reply fell below the standard we aspire to, and this is echoed by the member of staff who initially dealt with your enquiry.
To answer more fully, I am afraid that we are unable to carry out formal medal assessments for those who served in the First World War. The vast majority of medals for that conflict were issued in the immediate aftermath, based on records that existed at the time. Since then, most surviving records have been transferred to The National Archive, and the records of many of those who served were damaged or destroyed in the Second World War ‘blitz’. Consequently, we do not have any consistent source of data beyond that already available to members of the public nor, the specialist historic skills necessary to interpret individual and unit records from the period to make assessments as to what medals an individual might have been eligible for to the degree of certainty that we usually operate to. This contrasts with the Second World War where the medallic recognition was not finally decided until 1948 and the onus thereafter was on individuals to apply for medals; hence there were many thousands who did not claim their medals and we maintain a constant service of assessment and issue based on records that are still mostly held by the MOD and the Services and for which we have a team of trained specialist assessors. I know that will be little consolation in your particular case, but I include it to demonstrate that the limits on our services are driven more by the simple practicality of being able to deliver to a consistent standard rather than any devaluation or lack of respect for those who served in past conflicts.
As my colleague mentioned, our official access to records at The National Archive would produce only the same copy of the service record that you have already obtained. To make amends for our overly brief initial reply, however, I have asked a colleague in a different department who has access to the commercial Ancestry system to conduct a search for me. That has turned up a copy of the same Royal Navy record of service that you have, together with a brief summary of RAF service and very sketchy original document (copy attached). We have also found a medal roll card (also attached) that indicates that one medal was issued to AC3 (Aircraftman 3rd Class) Archibald B Wyles with the correct Service Number, which the annotation of ‘B’ would indicate was the British War Medal. That would suggest that he also received the Victory Medal, but there is no record of that on this particular document (which has other recipients annotated with ‘V’ which might indicate the Victory Medal). Notwithstanding Mr Dennis’ comment below, the international Medal Yearbook confirms that the Victory Medal was issued to ‘most’ of those who had the War Medal, so the two are not always combined. That does not constitute an official assessment of entitlement, of course, but will hopefully add to what you know already.
Again, I am sorry that our initial reply was so short; we get many hundreds of letters and emails around Remembrance season and, in attempting to provide prompt responses to them all, we fell below our own standards. I hope that this more fulsome response explains the background and provides at least some new information.
Yours sincerely
Clive Montellier
Group Captain (Retd) C A Montellier OBE FCIPD FCMI RAF | DBS(Mil Pers) AHd JCCC & MOD Medal Office
Innsworth House, Imjin Barracks, Gloucester, GL3 1HW
Tel Mil: 95471-7058 | Civ: 01452-712612 Ext 7058 | Skype tel: 0300 1629713
Email: [email protected]
As an advocate of flexible working, I will often send messages early or late in the day, but there is no expectation of a response or action outside your own working hours.
Update: Royal Navy-MOD (14.12.2021)
Subject: RN Enquiry
Date: Tuesday, 14 December 2021 10:59
Good morning Mr Wyles,
HMS President II and V were not ships but "stone frigates" located across various London area locations and served as an "accounting base" for the Royal Naval Air Service.
As such, a person may have simply been recorded as serving on "HMS President" whilst they were “in between” ships, serving at an external base, and as it was an accounting base someone listed at President II could also be on a ship or boat too small for its own paymaster.
I hope that this helps with your research into your grandfather's service.
Kind Regards
Tracey
Tracey Goodall | RN FPS Information Officer | Royal Navy Family & People Support, Information Office, Hamworthy Barracks Community Centre, Fort Cumberland Close, Hamworthy, Poole, Dorset BH15 4NX | Telephone: 0300 157 6348 |
Subject: RN Enquiry
Date: Tuesday, 14 December 2021 10:59
Good morning Mr Wyles,
HMS President II and V were not ships but "stone frigates" located across various London area locations and served as an "accounting base" for the Royal Naval Air Service.
As such, a person may have simply been recorded as serving on "HMS President" whilst they were “in between” ships, serving at an external base, and as it was an accounting base someone listed at President II could also be on a ship or boat too small for its own paymaster.
I hope that this helps with your research into your grandfather's service.
Kind Regards
Tracey
Tracey Goodall | RN FPS Information Officer | Royal Navy Family & People Support, Information Office, Hamworthy Barracks Community Centre, Fort Cumberland Close, Hamworthy, Poole, Dorset BH15 4NX | Telephone: 0300 157 6348 |
Update: MOD-Navy Email 15.12.2021
HMS President – History
From: White, Jonathan Lt Cdr MOD
RE: Royal Navy Air Service (1917-1919)
Date: Wednesday, 15 December 2021 10:25
Many thanks for your email, Mr Chan-Wyles and I apologise for the slight delay in getting back to you.
However, I have been looking into the history of HMS PRESIDENT since I took over as the Operations Officer a couple of months ago. I believe I can answer your question regarding the ships PRESIDENT I-VI and provide a bit of the history of the name PRESIDENT as well. As background, it is common for the Naming Committee to re-use names on newer Ships or Establishments, especially where there is a historical link.
The first ship PRESIDENT was actually the French frigate President captured in 1806 who then served as HMS PRESIDENT between 1806 to 1815. The Royal Navy has a history of this sort of thing as the next was an American ship captured in 1815 and renamed as HMS PRESIDENT. Having been found to be unfit for repair in 1818 she was broken up but the design was copied for the next HMS PRESIDENT in 1829. This was considered to be a political manoeuvre at the time more than a testament to the design as the Royal Navy wished to retain the name and likeness of the American ship on their register as a reminder to the United States and other nations of the capture. She served in the Royal Navy until 1903, latterly as a Drill/Training Ship moored in the West India Dock for the Royal Naval Reserve (RNR) and all subsequent RNR training ships berthed in London have been called/renamed PRESIDENT.
Turning to the Divisions themselves:
In 1903, the Naval Forces Act created the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve and HMS PRESIDENT took on the role as the accounting base for Admiralty personnel as well as other locations onshore in the City of London. As these developed, new departments were established in buildings across the city and all of them took on the name of PRESIDENT with a different numeric suffix:
HMS President I
Located both in London and Shrewsbury it was established as an accounting base, in operation between 1918 and 1928. It took over the accounting from the Stornoway based HMS Iolaire, which had closed on 19 May 1919. It was at the Royal Victoria Yard in 1939, and moved to Shrewsbury in September 1940. It returned to London on 6 July 1945, setting up operations at Chelsea Court. It took over some Naval Party accounts from HMS Odyssey when that office closed on 31 January 1946. The department remained operational between 1947 and 1957, seeing the merging into it of HMS President III and HMS Pembroke III.
HMS President II
This was another accounting base, based at times at Chatham, Crystal Palace, Chingford and Shrewsbury, and extant between 1916 and at least 1947. Also at Felixstowe in 1917. (Possibly also at Calshot and Bembridge during 1917.)
HMS President III
A third accounting base, this time alternately based at Bristol, Windsor and London. It covered the accounts of the active services of the Royal Fleet Reserve, the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve and the Royal Naval Reserve from 1916 onwards, also extending to covering demobilisation accounts from December 1918 onwards. The Defensively Equipped Merchant Ship accounts were transferred to HMS Vivid on 1 October 1919. In August 1935, President III also took over the accounts of the Mobile Naval Defence Base Organisation. It was re-established on 28 August 1939 in Bristol to train those allocated for service on the Defensively Equipped Merchant Ships. It was later transferred to locations across Windsor and London. By 31 May 1944 the command held over 30,500 accounts. The ledgers were closed after the war on 1 July 1946, and the accounts covered by President III and Pembroke III were merged into President I.
HMS President IV
This was the London accounting base, in operation between 1918 and 1926, handling the accounts of the commands of the Coastguard ships and the Reserves.
HMS President V
Another London accounting base, initially set up in 1918 it covered a wide variety of accounts but was paid off on 30 September 1919 and the accounts were transferred to HMS Pembroke. It was recommissioned on 1 November 1941 as a training establishment for Accountant Branch Ratings. It closed on 14 July 1944 and its operations were moved to HMS Demetrius.
HMS President VI
Also established in 1918, it handled transport service accounts, and from February 1919 was the base for the Murmansk tugs, whilst handling the accounts of officers assigned to Northern Russia. These accounts were transferred to HMS Lobster in July 1919.
HMS PRESIDENT, as in her current format as the largest RNR training division in the country, open in a purpose-built building at St Katharine’s Docks in 1998.
I therefore suspect that your grandfather might have served in several ships as aircrew who’s records were managed by PRESIDENTS II and V but I’m not in a position to find out which exactly they were and it is unfortunate that the records don’t give that information but I would imagine that this wasn’t thought a priority at the time. I do know that people have been successful using this service from the gov.uk https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records.
I hope this helps.
Jonathan
Lt Cdr Jonathan White RN | Unit Operations Officer | HMS President | 72 St Katharine’s Way | LONDON | E1W 1UQ | Tel: +44 (0)300 169 1793 Civ: +44 (0)207 481 7360 Mil: 93 645 7360 | [email protected]
HMS President – History
From: White, Jonathan Lt Cdr MOD
RE: Royal Navy Air Service (1917-1919)
Date: Wednesday, 15 December 2021 10:25
Many thanks for your email, Mr Chan-Wyles and I apologise for the slight delay in getting back to you.
However, I have been looking into the history of HMS PRESIDENT since I took over as the Operations Officer a couple of months ago. I believe I can answer your question regarding the ships PRESIDENT I-VI and provide a bit of the history of the name PRESIDENT as well. As background, it is common for the Naming Committee to re-use names on newer Ships or Establishments, especially where there is a historical link.
The first ship PRESIDENT was actually the French frigate President captured in 1806 who then served as HMS PRESIDENT between 1806 to 1815. The Royal Navy has a history of this sort of thing as the next was an American ship captured in 1815 and renamed as HMS PRESIDENT. Having been found to be unfit for repair in 1818 she was broken up but the design was copied for the next HMS PRESIDENT in 1829. This was considered to be a political manoeuvre at the time more than a testament to the design as the Royal Navy wished to retain the name and likeness of the American ship on their register as a reminder to the United States and other nations of the capture. She served in the Royal Navy until 1903, latterly as a Drill/Training Ship moored in the West India Dock for the Royal Naval Reserve (RNR) and all subsequent RNR training ships berthed in London have been called/renamed PRESIDENT.
Turning to the Divisions themselves:
In 1903, the Naval Forces Act created the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve and HMS PRESIDENT took on the role as the accounting base for Admiralty personnel as well as other locations onshore in the City of London. As these developed, new departments were established in buildings across the city and all of them took on the name of PRESIDENT with a different numeric suffix:
HMS President I
Located both in London and Shrewsbury it was established as an accounting base, in operation between 1918 and 1928. It took over the accounting from the Stornoway based HMS Iolaire, which had closed on 19 May 1919. It was at the Royal Victoria Yard in 1939, and moved to Shrewsbury in September 1940. It returned to London on 6 July 1945, setting up operations at Chelsea Court. It took over some Naval Party accounts from HMS Odyssey when that office closed on 31 January 1946. The department remained operational between 1947 and 1957, seeing the merging into it of HMS President III and HMS Pembroke III.
HMS President II
This was another accounting base, based at times at Chatham, Crystal Palace, Chingford and Shrewsbury, and extant between 1916 and at least 1947. Also at Felixstowe in 1917. (Possibly also at Calshot and Bembridge during 1917.)
HMS President III
A third accounting base, this time alternately based at Bristol, Windsor and London. It covered the accounts of the active services of the Royal Fleet Reserve, the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve and the Royal Naval Reserve from 1916 onwards, also extending to covering demobilisation accounts from December 1918 onwards. The Defensively Equipped Merchant Ship accounts were transferred to HMS Vivid on 1 October 1919. In August 1935, President III also took over the accounts of the Mobile Naval Defence Base Organisation. It was re-established on 28 August 1939 in Bristol to train those allocated for service on the Defensively Equipped Merchant Ships. It was later transferred to locations across Windsor and London. By 31 May 1944 the command held over 30,500 accounts. The ledgers were closed after the war on 1 July 1946, and the accounts covered by President III and Pembroke III were merged into President I.
HMS President IV
This was the London accounting base, in operation between 1918 and 1926, handling the accounts of the commands of the Coastguard ships and the Reserves.
HMS President V
Another London accounting base, initially set up in 1918 it covered a wide variety of accounts but was paid off on 30 September 1919 and the accounts were transferred to HMS Pembroke. It was recommissioned on 1 November 1941 as a training establishment for Accountant Branch Ratings. It closed on 14 July 1944 and its operations were moved to HMS Demetrius.
HMS President VI
Also established in 1918, it handled transport service accounts, and from February 1919 was the base for the Murmansk tugs, whilst handling the accounts of officers assigned to Northern Russia. These accounts were transferred to HMS Lobster in July 1919.
HMS PRESIDENT, as in her current format as the largest RNR training division in the country, open in a purpose-built building at St Katharine’s Docks in 1998.
I therefore suspect that your grandfather might have served in several ships as aircrew who’s records were managed by PRESIDENTS II and V but I’m not in a position to find out which exactly they were and it is unfortunate that the records don’t give that information but I would imagine that this wasn’t thought a priority at the time. I do know that people have been successful using this service from the gov.uk https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records.
I hope this helps.
Jonathan
Lt Cdr Jonathan White RN | Unit Operations Officer | HMS President | 72 St Katharine’s Way | LONDON | E1W 1UQ | Tel: +44 (0)300 169 1793 Civ: +44 (0)207 481 7360 Mil: 93 645 7360 | [email protected]